Oct 3, 2023 #stephenfry #intelligencesquared #catholicchurch
411,587 views • Oct 3, 2023 • #stephenfry #intelligencesquared #catholicchurch
Stephen Fry shares his insights on why he believes the Catholic Church may not be the force for good it claims to be. In this session from our 2015 event, 'The Catholic Church is a Force for Good in the World,' Fry delves into the Church's history, moral concerns, and its societal impact. Explore his perspectives and engage in the debate on the role of organised religion in today's world.
Transcript:
there are occasions as gwendaline remarked in The Importance of Being Earnest when it becomes more than a moral duty to speak one's mind it becomes a pleasure and this is one such occasion with my trusty hitch by my side I am very proud to be here but also very nervous very worried I've been nervous all day and the reason I've been nervous is quite simple and that is that this motion matters to me it matters to me greatly it's not a joke it's not a game it's not just a debate I genuinely believe that the Catholic church is not to put it at its mildest a Force for good in the world and therefore it is important for me to try and Marshall my facts as well I can to explain why I think that but I want first of all to say that I have no quarrel and no argument and I wish to express no contempt for individual devout and Pious men members of that church they are welcome to their sacraments to their welcome to their reliquaries and to their Blessed Virgin Mary they're welcome to their um to their faith, to the importance they place in it to the comfort and the joy that they receive from it all of that is absolutely fine by me it would be impertinent and wrong of me to express any antagonism towards any individual who wishes to find Salvation in whatever form they wish to express it that to me is sacranct an as much as any Article of Faith is sacrasanct to anyone of any church or any faith in the world.
It's very important it's also very important to me is it happens um that I have my own beliefs they are a belief in the enlightenment they are a belief um in the Eternal adventure of trying to discover moral truth in the world discover it's a terribly important word to which we might return.
It's a fight. it's an empirical fight it's one that was begun in the middle of uh of of the last Millennium uh it's given the name the Enlightenment and there is nothing sadly that the Catholic church and its hierarchs likes to do more than to attack the enlightenment it did so at the time
Reference was made to Galileo and the fact that he was tortured for trying to explain the Copernican theory of the universe. That's history history as Miss Wham has reminded us is irrelevant, it's not important, all that matters now is that billions of pounds go out of this extraordinary institution to relieve the poor around the world and make the world a better place history is of no importance whatsoeve.
Well I beg to differ.
History history whines and quivers and vibrates in all of us in this Hall in this square mile let's think about this square mile. I'll come back to it in a moment but first Christopher made mention of limbo.
It seems so tedious and so silly, one of those little casuistic games that toist and others play. Aquinas proposed this extraordinary idea that babies who were unbaptized would not know Heaven.
They also proposed the idea of purgatory which doesn't exist in the Bible. There's absolutely no evidence for it.
However what an extraordinary brilliant coup to imagine such a thing as Purgatory. That a soul needs to be prayed for in order to go to heaven in order to turn left when he enters the airplane of heaven and get a first class seat that he needs to be prayed for and for many hundreds indeed over a thousand years. You'll be amazed what generous terms those prayers came at sometimes as little are as two thirds of a year's salary could ensure that a dead loved one would go to heaven and money could ensure that your baby, your dead child your dead uncle, your dead mother, could go to heaven and if you were Rich enough you could have a Chancely built and monks would permanently sing prayers so that that existence in heaven for the child would go up and up and up until they were at the table of the Lord themselves.
Now all this is in the past and is irrelevant I cede to an Wham how irrelevant it is, except in one thing, this church is founded on the principle of intercession only through the apostolic succession only through the laying on of hands from this Galilean Carpenter whom we can all admire.
Only from the laying on of hands to his Apostles to St Peter to the other Bishops all the way down to everyone consecrated in this room. Anyone ordained here will know they are uh they have this extraordinary power to change the molecules of wine into blood literally to change the molecules of paste bread into flesh literally and to forgive the sins of the peasants and the poor whom they routinely exploit around the planet.
Only this church has this extraordinary principle that it is through these male priests and only male priests that this is given. It is a doctrinal fact. It is more than a doctrinal fact it is a Dogma extra Ecclesia am nul salus.
Outside the church there is no salvation. That is a dogma of the church that has been used to excuse all the missionary Zeal, all the rape and tortureof the Aztecs and the Incas, all the horrors of South America and Africa and the Philippines and the rest of the world to which other churches and other cultures have also their guilt to admit.
it's not unique to the Catholic church and I never said it was and the motion doesn't say it was or at least the opposition of the motion does not arrogate to the Catholic Church uniquely this sin.
However the particular nature of the exploitation of the poor the vulnerable and the young. If I were to talk to a priest now believe me that priest would be the most worldly Charming self-deprecating snobbish in a Ronald Knox Al gilby sort of way he would be lovely he would smoke.
Gosh how daring he would be a sort of ha haa priest and the Superstition and the nonsense that we read about of the church it it's absolute don't pay any attention Steven just join Farm Street or one or the bronton oratory and have a marvelous time as a Catholic and everything is lovely and Splendid.
But be poor and ignorant and my goodness me every single detail of damnation and original sin and of any possibility of your complaining or asking to think for yourself.
I said let's think of this square mile just imagine in this square mile how many people were burned for reading the Bible in English and one of the principal burners and torturers of those who tried to read the Bible in English here in London was Thomas Moore, you may know if you've read the novel Wolf Hall which won the man Booker prize just the other day
Now that's a long time ago it's not relevant except that it was only last century that Thomas Moore was made a saint and it was only in the year 2000 that the last Pope the pole he he made Thomas Moore the patron saint of politicians. This is a man who put people on the rack for daring to own a Bible in English. He tortured them for owning a Bible in their own language
The idea that the Catholic Church exists to disseminate the word of the Lord is nonsense it is the only owner of the truth for the billions that it likes to boast about because those billions are uneducated and poor as again it likes to boast about but they are the ones it can tell and Bully and domineer.
And then we come to Children. Well it's all very well to say the world didn't know better the world had no knowledge of how dangerous crime uh how dangerous a crime child abuse was.
I want to read you some of the words of Ratzinger the current pope. It staggers me to admit that he is the head of state of a country. Incidentally an Wham said we doesn't have the power of a nation state. yes you do you are a nation state. Yes I wrote it down. You mentioned that you are a nation state and it is noaccident that the you the UN KIRO population conference when they were trying to do something about the world's population spinning out of control.
Vatican City as a nation state, represented at that conference made a joint statement with the Islamic countries of the world notably the most extreme Islamic countries of the world led by Saudi Arabia. And it it began on behalf of the re revealed religions of the world dot dot dot and what he did was essentially hobble and veto any possibility of women's sexual freedom in the world because as we know the Islamic religion and the Catholic Church have never been anything other than implacably opposed to women's choice in their own bodies and their Destinies however so Ratsinger in 2003 was he was he was prefect, I'm not making this up he was prefect of the congregation of the doctrine of the faith and it was his job to deal with the child abuse Scandal that was brewing his First Act was to write a letter to Catholic Bishops
ordering them on pain of excommunication not to talk to the police or anyone else. Investigation should be handled he wrote and I'm quoting that letter, in the most secretive way restrained by Perpetual silence the Mexican founder of the Legion of Christ movement marel Deo was protected from his own catalog of child abuse, which is horrific, one cannot put on trial so close a friend of the Pope said ratzinger when the allegations could no longer be denied marel was sentenced sentenced to a life of prayer and penitence and Ranzinger described the whole Affair and that of Bernard La ofBoston to which my colleague also referred as causing suffering for thechurch and for me personally
He also said the answer would be to stop homosexuals from beingallowed into the church.
Now it's perhaps unfair of me as a gay man to moan this enormous institution which is the largest and most powerful Church on Earth has over a billion as they like to tell us members each one of whom is uh
under strict instructions to believe the dogmas of the church but may wrestle with them personally of course it's a little hard for me to know that I
me to be told that be told that I'm I'm evil because I think of myself as someone who is filled with love whose only purpose in life was to achieve love and who feels love for so much of Natureand the world and for everything els
And who like anybody decent and of an education realizes that in order to achieve and and receive love it's a struggle it's not one that needs a popeto
suicides being gay teenage suicides wertainly don't need the stigmatization the victimization that leads to the playground bullying when people say you're a disordered morally evil individual
that's not nice it isn't nice the kind of Cruelty in Catholic
Education the kind of of child let's not call it child abuse IT WAS CHILD RAPE
structure and nature of the Catholic church and the Twisted neurotic and hysterical way that its leaders are chosen the celibacy the nuns the monks
the priesthood this is not natural and normal ladies and gentlemen in 2009 it really isn'.
I'm sorry, for me to be called a pervert by these extraordinarily sexually dysfunctional people I don't think human history's ever had more I have to I have to say this is not
a problem that necessarily is permanent
I like to believe that in 10 years time
I could come back and argue the opposite
even though I've talked about the
history and the structural problems of
this bited institution and the cruelty
and the unpleasantness it is caused
around the world I have yet to approach
one of the subjects dearest to my heart
I've made three documentary films on the
subject of AIDS in Africa my particular
love is the country of Uganda it is one
of the countries I love most in the
world been there many times I've
interviewed Joseph to Yi mevy and his
wife Janet uh before unfortunately she
suddenly saw god um there was a period
when Uganda had the worst incidents of
HIV AIDS in the world I went to raki the
village where it was first spotted but
through an amazing initiative called ABC
abstinence be faithful correct use of
condoms those three I am not denying
that abstinence is a very good way of
not getting AIDS it really is it works
so does being faithful but so do condoms
and do not deny it and this Pope this
Pope not satisfied not satisfied with
saying condoms are against our religion
please consider first abstinence second
being faithful to your partner he
spreads the lie that condoms actually
increase the incident of AIDS he
actually makes sure that Aid is
conditional on saying no to condoms I
have been to there's a hospital in Bundi
in the west of Uganda where I do quite a
lot of work it is unbelievable the pain
and suffering you see now yes yes it is
true abstinence will stop it it's it's
the strange thing about this church it
is obsessed with sex absolutely obsessed
now they will say they will say we with
our permissive society and our rude
jokes are obsessed no we have a health
healthy attitude we like it it's fun
it's jolly because it's a primary
impulse it can be dangerous and dark and
difficult it's a bit like food in that
respect only even more exciting the only
people who are obsessed with food are
anorexics and the morbidly OB beast and
that in erotic terms is the Catholic
church in a nutshell so
all I want to say really is that we're
here in the Methodist Hall I'm not
trying to argue against religion on this
occasion I'm not saying there's I
understand the desire of anybody to to
seek spiritual rewards in a in a complex
and difficult to understand world we
don't know why we're here where we're
going we want answers we love the idea
of answers how marvelous it would be but
there are other choices there are
Quakers who could possibly quarrel with
a Quaker with their pacifism with their
openness with their ease with their
Simplicity with their refusal to tell
anybody what's a dogma and what isn't
even with methodists also I'm not saying
protestantism is the answer against
Catholicism I am merely saying there are
all kinds of ways we can search for the
truth you do not need this Imperial
panoply of marble and gold do you know
who would be the last person ever to be
accepted as a prince of the church the
Galilean Carpenter that Jew they would
kick him out before he tried to cross
the threshold he would be so ill at ease
in the church that simple and remarkable
man if he said the things that he was
said to have said what would he think
what would he think of St Peter's what
would he think of the wealth and the
power and the self-justification and the
weedlig apologies
what would he think of a man who calls
himself the father a celibate who dared
to lecture people on what family values
are what would he think of any of that
he would be horrified but there is a
solution there is an answer there is
redemption available for all of us and
any one of us and for the Catholic
Church funny enough I think it's a novel
by moris West the pope could decide that
all this power all this wealth this
hierarchy of princes and Bishops and
archbishops and Priests and monks and
nuns could be sent out in the world with
money and art Treasures to put them back
in the countries that they once raped
and violated whose oanimism and belief and simplicity they
told would tell them take them straight
to hell they could give that money away
and they could concentrate on the
apparent essence of their belief and
then I would stand here and say the
Catholic Church May well be a force fo
good in the world but until that day it is not.
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