Stephen Fry Passionately Argues the Catholic Church is NOT a Force for Good

Ron: Food for thought Pilgrims.

Oct 3, 2023 #stephenfry #intelligencesquared #catholicchurch

411,587 views • Oct 3, 2023 • #stephenfry #intelligencesquared #catholicchurch

Stephen Fry shares his insights on why he believes the Catholic Church may not be the force for good it claims to be. In this session from our 2015 event, 'The Catholic Church is a Force for Good in the World,' Fry delves into the Church's history, moral concerns, and its societal impact. Explore his perspectives and engage in the debate on the role of organised religion in today's world.

Transcript:

there are occasions as gwendaline remarked in The Importance of Being Earnest when it becomes more than a moral duty to speak one's mind it becomes a pleasure and this is one such occasion with my trusty hitch by my side I am very proud to be here but also very nervous very worried I've been nervous all day and the reason I've been nervous is quite simple and that is that this motion matters to me it matters to me greatly it's not a joke it's not a game it's not just a debate I genuinely believe that the Catholic church is not to put it at its mildest a Force for good in the world and therefore it is important for me to try and Marshall my facts as well I can to explain why I think that but I want first of all to say that I have no quarrel and no argument and I wish to express no contempt for individual devout and Pious men members of that church they are welcome to their sacraments to their welcome to their reliquaries and to their Blessed Virgin Mary they're welcome to their um to their faith, to the importance they place in it to the comfort and the joy that they receive from it all of that is absolutely fine by me it would be impertinent and wrong of me to express any antagonism towards any individual who wishes to find Salvation in whatever form they wish to express it that to me is sacranct an as much as any Article of Faith is sacrasanct to anyone of any church or any faith in the world.

It's very important it's also very important to me is it happens um that I have my own beliefs they are a belief in the enlightenment they are a belief um in the Eternal adventure of trying to discover moral truth in the world discover it's a terribly important word to which we might return.

It's a fight. it's an empirical fight it's one that was begun in the middle of uh of of the last Millennium uh it's given the name the Enlightenment and there is nothing sadly that the Catholic church and its hierarchs likes to do more than to attack the enlightenment it did so at the time

Reference was made to Galileo and the fact that he was tortured for trying to explain the Copernican theory of the universe. That's history history as Miss Wham has reminded us is irrelevant, it's not important, all that matters now is that billions of pounds go out of this extraordinary institution to relieve the poor around the world and make the world a better place history is of no importance whatsoeve.

Well I beg to differ.

History history whines and quivers and vibrates in all of us in this Hall in this square mile let's think about this square mile. I'll come back to it in a moment but first Christopher made mention of limbo.

It seems so tedious and so silly, one of those little casuistic games that toist and others play. Aquinas proposed this extraordinary idea that babies who were unbaptized would not know Heaven.

They also proposed the idea of purgatory which doesn't exist in the Bible. There's absolutely no evidence for it.

However what an extraordinary brilliant coup to imagine such a thing as Purgatory. That a soul needs to be prayed for in order to go to heaven in order to turn left when he enters the airplane of heaven and get a first class seat that he needs to be prayed for and for many hundreds indeed over a thousand years. You'll be amazed what generous terms those prayers came at sometimes as little are as two thirds of a year's salary could ensure that a dead loved one would go to heaven and money could ensure that your baby, your dead child your dead uncle, your dead mother, could go to heaven and if you were Rich enough you could have a Chancely built and monks would permanently sing prayers so that that existence in heaven for the child would go up and up and up until they were at the table of the Lord themselves.

Now all this is in the past and is irrelevant I cede to an Wham how irrelevant it is, except in one thing, this church is founded on the principle of intercession only through the apostolic succession only through the laying on of hands from this Galilean Carpenter whom we can all admire.

Only from the laying on of hands to his Apostles to St Peter to the other Bishops all the way down to everyone consecrated in this room. Anyone ordained here will know they are uh they have this extraordinary power to change the molecules of wine into blood literally to change the molecules of paste bread into flesh literally and to forgive the sins of the peasants and the poor whom they routinely exploit around the planet.

Only this church has this extraordinary principle that it is through these male priests and only male priests that this is given. It is a doctrinal fact. It is more than a doctrinal fact it is a Dogma extra Ecclesia am nul salus.

Outside the church there is no salvation. That is a dogma of the church that has been used to excuse all the missionary Zeal, all the rape and tortureof the Aztecs and the Incas, all the horrors of South America and Africa and the Philippines and the rest of the world to which other churches and other cultures have also their guilt to admit.

it's not unique to the Catholic church and I never said it was and the motion doesn't say it was or at least the opposition of the motion does not arrogate to the Catholic Church uniquely this sin.

However the particular nature of the exploitation of the poor the vulnerable and the young. If I were to talk to a priest now believe me that priest would be the most worldly Charming self-deprecating snobbish in a Ronald Knox Al gilby sort of way he would be lovely he would smoke.

Gosh how daring he would be a sort of ha haa priest and the Superstition and the nonsense that we read about of the church it it's absolute don't pay any attention Steven just join Farm Street or one or the bronton oratory and have a marvelous time as a Catholic and everything is lovely and Splendid.

But be poor and ignorant and my goodness me every single detail of damnation and original sin and of any possibility of your complaining or asking to think for yourself.

I said let's think of this square mile just imagine in this square mile how many people were burned for reading the Bible in English and one of the principal burners and torturers of those who tried to read the Bible in English here in London was Thomas Moore, you may know if you've read the novel Wolf Hall which won the man Booker prize just the other day

Now that's a long time ago it's not relevant except that it was only last century that Thomas Moore was made a saint and it was only in the year 2000 that the last Pope the pole he he made Thomas Moore the patron saint of politicians. This is a man who put people on the rack for daring to own a Bible in English. He tortured them for owning a Bible in their own language

The idea that the Catholic Church exists to disseminate the word of the Lord is nonsense it is the only owner of the truth for the billions that it likes to boast about because those billions are uneducated and poor as again it likes to boast about but they are the ones it can tell and Bully and domineer.

And then we come to Children. Well it's all very well to say the world didn't know better the world had no knowledge of how dangerous crime uh how dangerous a crime child abuse was.

I want to read you some of the words of Ratzinger the current pope. It staggers me to admit that he is the head of state of a country. Incidentally an Wham said we doesn't have the power of a nation state. yes you do you are a nation state. Yes I wrote it down. You mentioned that you are a nation state and it is noaccident that the you the UN KIRO population conference when they were trying to do something about the world's population spinning out of control.

Vatican City as a nation state, represented at that conference made a joint statement with the Islamic countries of the world notably the most extreme Islamic countries of the world led by Saudi Arabia. And it it began on behalf of the re revealed religions of the world dot dot dot and what he did was essentially hobble and veto any possibility of women's sexual freedom in the world because as we know the Islamic religion and the Catholic Church have never been anything other than implacably opposed to women's choice in their own bodies and their Destinies however so Ratsinger in 2003 was he was he was prefect, I'm not making this up he was prefect of the congregation of the doctrine of the faith and it was his job to deal with the child abuse Scandal that was brewing his First Act was to write a letter to Catholic Bishops

ordering them on pain of excommunication not to talk to the police or anyone else. Investigation should be handled he wrote and I'm quoting that letter, in the most secretive way restrained by Perpetual silence the Mexican founder of the Legion of Christ movement marel Deo was protected from his own catalog of child abuse, which is horrific, one cannot put on trial so close a friend of the Pope said ratzinger when the allegations could no longer be denied marel was sentenced sentenced to a life of prayer and penitence and Ranzinger described the whole Affair and that of Bernard La ofBoston to which my colleague also referred as causing suffering for thechurch and for me personally

He also said the answer would be to stop homosexuals from beingallowed into the church.

Now it's perhaps unfair of me as a gay man to moan this enormous institution which is the largest and most powerful Church on Earth has over a billion as they like to tell us members each one of whom is uh

under strict instructions to believe the dogmas of the church but may wrestle with them personally of course it's a little hard for me to know that I

me to be told that be told that I'm I'm evil because I think of myself as someone who is filled with love whose only purpose in life was to achieve love and who feels love for so much of Natureand the world and for everything els

And who like anybody decent and of an education realizes that in order to achieve and and receive love it's a struggle it's not one that needs a popeto

suicides being gay teenage suicides wertainly don't need the stigmatization the victimization that leads to the playground bullying when people say you're a disordered morally evil individual

that's not nice it isn't nice the kind of Cruelty in Catholic

Education the kind of of child let's not call it child abuse IT WAS CHILD RAPE

structure and nature of the Catholic church and the Twisted neurotic and hysterical way that its leaders are chosen the celibacy the nuns the monks

the priesthood this is not natural and normal ladies and gentlemen in 2009 it really isn'.

I'm sorry, for me to be called a pervert by these extraordinarily sexually dysfunctional people I don't think human history's ever had more I have to I have to say this is not

a problem that necessarily is permanent

I like to believe that in 10 years time

I could come back and argue the opposite

even though I've talked about the

history and the structural problems of

this bited institution and the cruelty

and the unpleasantness it is caused

around the world I have yet to approach

one of the subjects dearest to my heart

I've made three documentary films on the

subject of AIDS in Africa my particular

love is the country of Uganda it is one

of the countries I love most in the

world been there many times I've

interviewed Joseph to Yi mevy and his

wife Janet uh before unfortunately she

suddenly saw god um there was a period

when Uganda had the worst incidents of

HIV AIDS in the world I went to raki the

village where it was first spotted but

through an amazing initiative called ABC

abstinence be faithful correct use of

condoms those three I am not denying

that abstinence is a very good way of

not getting AIDS it really is it works

so does being faithful but so do condoms

and do not deny it and this Pope this

Pope not satisfied not satisfied with

saying condoms are against our religion

please consider first abstinence second

being faithful to your partner he

spreads the lie that condoms actually

increase the incident of AIDS he

actually makes sure that Aid is

conditional on saying no to condoms I

have been to there's a hospital in Bundi

in the west of Uganda where I do quite a

lot of work it is unbelievable the pain

and suffering you see now yes yes it is

true abstinence will stop it it's it's

the strange thing about this church it

is obsessed with sex absolutely obsessed

now they will say they will say we with

our permissive society and our rude

jokes are obsessed no we have a health

healthy attitude we like it it's fun

it's jolly because it's a primary

impulse it can be dangerous and dark and

difficult it's a bit like food in that

respect only even more exciting the only

people who are obsessed with food are

anorexics and the morbidly OB beast and

that in erotic terms is the Catholic

church in a nutshell so

all I want to say really is that we're

here in the Methodist Hall I'm not

trying to argue against religion on this

occasion I'm not saying there's I

understand the desire of anybody to to

seek spiritual rewards in a in a complex

and difficult to understand world we

don't know why we're here where we're

going we want answers we love the idea

of answers how marvelous it would be but

there are other choices there are

Quakers who could possibly quarrel with

a Quaker with their pacifism with their

openness with their ease with their

Simplicity with their refusal to tell

anybody what's a dogma and what isn't

even with methodists also I'm not saying

protestantism is the answer against

Catholicism I am merely saying there are

all kinds of ways we can search for the

truth you do not need this Imperial

panoply of marble and gold do you know

who would be the last person ever to be

accepted as a prince of the church the

Galilean Carpenter that Jew they would

kick him out before he tried to cross

the threshold he would be so ill at ease

in the church that simple and remarkable

man if he said the things that he was

said to have said what would he think

what would he think of St Peter's what

would he think of the wealth and the

power and the self-justification and the

weedlig apologies

what would he think of a man who calls

himself the father a celibate who dared

to lecture people on what family values

are what would he think of any of that

he would be horrified but there is a

solution there is an answer there is

redemption available for all of us and

any one of us and for the Catholic

Church funny enough I think it's a novel

by moris West the pope could decide that

all this power all this wealth this

hierarchy of princes and Bishops and

archbishops and Priests and monks and

nuns could be sent out in the world with

money and art Treasures to put them back

in the countries that they once raped

and violated whose oanimism and belief and simplicity they

told would tell them take them straight

to hell they could give that money away

and they could concentrate on the

apparent essence of their belief and

then I would stand here and say the

Catholic Church May well be a force fo

good in the world but until that day it is not.

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